Comments on: Journalists and Communities: What I Told AJR http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/ Sun, 23 Aug 2009 21:40:20 +0000 http://wordpress.org/?v=2.9.2 hourly 1 By: Jon Garfunkel http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2634 Jon Garfunkel Mon, 04 Aug 2008 01:35:37 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2634 I'll add another theory for the perceived tardiness of newspapers -- perhaps they are actually undertaking efforts to make the archives free, and we don't know about them. I bothered to read the trackback from Josh Lucas above. Trackback being as horribly engineered as it is, what you see above is just his copying your text. But he added a link at the end here: http://articles.latimes.com/ Interesting, last time I checked, the LAT was notorious about breaking past hyperlinks. Apparently now they are giving article clean, permanent URLs and offering them for free. Strange, LAT is charging $3.95 for articles via ProQuest, here: http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/47589711.html?dids=47589711:47589711&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jan+1%2C+2000&author=TIM+KAWAKAMI&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&edition=&startpage=8&desc=LAKERS+REPORT%3B+Big+Picture+Means+More+Than+a+Winning+Streak This article is for free here: http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/01/sports/sp-49696 and, figure this out. These same hyperlinks go to the same articles: http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/03/entertainment/ca-webseries3 http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/newmedia/la-ca-webseries3-2008aug03,0,6183591.story http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-ca-webseries3-2008aug03,1,6570944.story (the last one is the one Google News picked up) I’ll add another theory for the perceived tardiness of newspapers — perhaps they are actually undertaking efforts to make the archives free, and we don’t know about them.

I bothered to read the trackback from Josh Lucas above. Trackback being as horribly engineered as it is, what you see above is just his copying your text. But he added a link at the end here:
http://articles.latimes.com/

Interesting, last time I checked, the LAT was notorious about breaking past hyperlinks. Apparently now they are giving article clean, permanent URLs and offering them for free.

Strange, LAT is charging $3.95 for articles via ProQuest, here:
http://pqasb.pqarchiver.com/latimes/access/47589711.html?dids=47589711:47589711&FMT=ABS&FMTS=ABS:FT&type=current&date=Jan+1%2C+2000&author=TIM+KAWAKAMI&pub=Los+Angeles+Times&edition=&startpage=8&desc=LAKERS+REPORT%3B+Big+Picture+Means+More+Than+a+Winning+Streak

This article is for free here:
http://articles.latimes.com/2000/jan/01/sports/sp-49696

and, figure this out. These same hyperlinks go to the same articles:
http://articles.latimes.com/2008/aug/03/entertainment/ca-webseries3
http://www.latimes.com/entertainment/news/newmedia/la-ca-webseries3-2008aug03,0,6183591.story
http://www.latimes.com/technology/la-ca-webseries3-2008aug03,1,6570944.story

(the last one is the one Google News picked up)

]]> By: Delia http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2633 Delia Sun, 03 Aug 2008 16:29:11 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2633 John, I think he *is* suggesting a "solution": stop self-serving baseless pontification. This is what I'm getting from the following and this is what Seth has been saying for a very long time. " I’ve noticed that the business-model of A-listers is to tell other people to change their business-model (”Everything You Know Is Wrong! It’s A New Era!”). Except the A-listers can profit whether or not their advice is good or bad, right or wrong - and hence, sometimes can be downright hostile to rigorous analysis (present company excepted, of course). But the actual numbers (when one can find them :-( ) are nowhere near as supportive as the breezy pontification." (July 31st, 2008 at 5:47 am) John, I think he *is* suggesting a “solution”: stop self-serving baseless pontification.

This is what I’m getting from the following and this is what Seth has been saying for a very long time.

” I’ve noticed that the business-model of A-listers is to tell other people to change their business-model (”Everything You Know Is Wrong! It’s A New Era!”). Except the A-listers can profit whether or not their advice is good or bad, right or wrong – and hence, sometimes can be downright hostile to rigorous analysis (present company excepted, of course). But the actual numbers (when one can find them :-( ) are nowhere near as supportive as the breezy pontification.” (July 31st, 2008 at 5:47 am)

]]> By: John A Arkansawyer http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2632 John A Arkansawyer Sun, 03 Aug 2008 13:55:05 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2632 While Seth's objections are often well-taken, I usually miss the parts where he suggests a solution. That doesn't make him wrong, but it reduces his utility. While Seth’s objections are often well-taken, I usually miss the parts where he suggests a solution. That doesn’t make him wrong, but it reduces his utility.

]]> By: lucasjosh.com » Blog Archive » Opening the Archives http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2631 lucasjosh.com » Blog Archive » Opening the Archives Sun, 03 Aug 2008 00:14:22 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2631 [...] From Dan Gillmor First is to open the archives, with permalinks on every story in the database. Newspapers hold more of their communities’ histories and all other media put together, yet they hoard it behind a paywall that produces pathetic revenues and keeps people in the communities from using it — as they would all the time — as part of their current lives. The revenues would go up with targeted search and keyword-specific ads on those pages, I’m absolutely convinced. But an equally important result would be to strengthen local ties. [...] [...] From Dan Gillmor First is to open the archives, with permalinks on every story in the database. Newspapers hold more of their communities’ histories and all other media put together, yet they hoard it behind a paywall that produces pathetic revenues and keeps people in the communities from using it — as they would all the time — as part of their current lives. The revenues would go up with targeted search and keyword-specific ads on those pages, I’m absolutely convinced. But an equally important result would be to strengthen local ties. [...]

]]> By: Delia http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2630 Delia Sat, 02 Aug 2008 22:06:46 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2630 Seth is pointing out obvious fundamental flaws in the arguments. That doesn't make him perfect, of course -- just the voice of reason. e.g. Dan: The chance to get *something* is not much of a risk. Seth: To the contrary, you have to hire a web person, deal with server hosting and bandwidth issues, that all costs money. It’s not zero-vs-positive. There’s quite a risk of negative. and on and on... Delia Seth is pointing out obvious fundamental flaws in the arguments. That doesn’t make him perfect, of course — just the voice of reason.

e.g.

Dan: The chance to get *something* is not much of a risk.

Seth: To the contrary, you have to hire a web person, deal with server hosting and bandwidth issues, that all costs money. It’s not zero-vs-positive. There’s quite a risk of negative.

and on and on…

Delia

]]> By: Jon Garfunkel http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2629 Jon Garfunkel Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:50:46 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2629 My sense here, what would clarify things, is to actually survey publishers. Do they use permanent links? Do they charge for archives? Which sections of the site are being viewed? If they don't offer archives, why? How much do they get from selling their archives to research databases? It seems to me there should by now be quantitative data on this. There'e enough money at stake. My sense here, what would clarify things, is to actually survey publishers. Do they use permanent links? Do they charge for archives? Which sections of the site are being viewed? If they don’t offer archives, why? How much do they get from selling their archives to research databases?

It seems to me there should by now be quantitative data on this. There’e enough money at stake.

]]> By: Dan Gillmor http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2628 Dan Gillmor Sat, 02 Aug 2008 20:09:45 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2628 Seth, I'm wrong often enough, and I admit when I am. You're pronouncing me wrong before anyone's truly tested this. I bow, in the end, to your unerring perfection. Seth, I’m wrong often enough, and I admit when I am. You’re pronouncing me wrong before anyone’s truly tested this.

I bow, in the end, to your unerring perfection.

]]> By: Delia http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2627 Delia Sat, 02 Aug 2008 12:33:55 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2627 good luck, Seth! If looks like you've got Jon backing you up, also... so I shouldn't be too badly missed:) Delia P.S. If you ever get Dan to really answer, it would be interesting to hear it -- otherwise, it just feels like running in circles... D. good luck, Seth! If looks like you’ve got Jon backing you up, also… so I shouldn’t be too badly missed:)

Delia

P.S. If you ever get Dan to really answer, it would be interesting to hear it — otherwise, it just feels like running in circles… D.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2626 Seth Finkelstein Fri, 01 Aug 2008 22:23:22 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2626 FYI, I have a column just published about one digital-sharecropping company's troubles with aggressive advertising monetization. http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jul/31/wikipedia Money quote (pun intended!): "Unfortunately, Google ads in the footer pay pennies a click, and nobody clicks" FYI, I have a column just published about one digital-sharecropping company’s troubles with aggressive advertising monetization.

http://www.guardian.co.uk/technology/2008/jul/31/wikipedia

Money quote (pun intended!):

“Unfortunately, Google ads in the footer pay pennies a click, and nobody clicks”

]]> By: Delia http://citmedia.org/blog/2008/07/30/journalists-and-communities-what-i-told-ajr/comment-page-1/#comment-2625 Delia Fri, 01 Aug 2008 21:13:40 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/?p=1400#comment-2625 a milder way to ask the core questions Seth is asking -- not that he would *need* to ask them milder -- might be: Dan, #1. what are the "obvious ways" (that escape Seth and me, at a minimum) of breaking even? (you were implying at least breaking even is a given) #2. what would it take for you -- what facts -- to conclude that there would be a significant risk of not getting the advertising revenue needed even in the long run ? (and just how long a view are you taking? it *cannot* be .... forever...) Delia P.S. I can see an argument that even if you loose some money by opening the archives there would be positive externalities that would at least compensate for that but Seth is correct that you (or anybody else talking authoritatively on these issues) need to" show your work" (the concrete rational steps that bring you to your conclusion) or acknowledge that it's just not a well founded guess... it may be a hope... or something else... D. a milder way to ask the core questions Seth is asking — not that he would *need* to ask them milder — might be:

Dan,

#1. what are the “obvious ways” (that escape Seth and me, at a minimum) of breaking even? (you were implying at least breaking even is a given)

#2. what would it take for you — what facts — to conclude that there would be a significant risk of not getting the advertising revenue needed even in the long run ? (and just how long a view are you taking? it *cannot* be …. forever…)

Delia

P.S. I can see an argument that even if you loose some money by opening the archives there would be positive externalities that would at least compensate for that but Seth is correct that you (or anybody else talking authoritatively on these issues) need to” show your work” (the concrete rational steps that bring you to your conclusion) or acknowledge that it’s just not a well founded guess… it may be a hope… or something else… D.

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