Comments on: Newspaper Self-Immolation http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/ Sat, 24 Oct 2009 22:49:29 +0000 hourly 1 http://wordpress.org/?v=3.3.2 By: Dan Gillmor http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1410 Dan Gillmor Fri, 11 May 2007 23:04:23 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1410 Seth, I have never told papers to get rid of all the the tenured pundits. Just the boring ones. I do believe that papers should add hyper-local media to their basic tools and content sets. There is no contradiction. Seth, I have never told papers to get rid of all the the tenured pundits. Just the boring ones.

I do believe that papers should add hyper-local media to their basic tools and content sets. There is no contradiction.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1412 Seth Finkelstein Fri, 11 May 2007 00:02:31 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1412 Dan, we seem to have an impasse, because I think the same thing <em>mutatis mutandis</em>. To re-iterate: The papers does exactly and precisely what is repeatedly (in what I see) urged as the solution to their woes: Get rid of the tenured pundits, focus on the *local* news. The reaction of the relevant bloggers is not to praise the paper for following their prescription, but intense denunciation ("self-defeating" , "suicidal", etc.). It turns out there's an exception, there are some pundits who are so valuable they should be retained as print lecturers - not replaced with an RSS feed of blogs. I think this critique, whatever else it may be, is quit comprehensible. Dan, we seem to have an impasse, because I think the same thing mutatis mutandis.

To re-iterate: The papers does exactly and precisely what is repeatedly (in what I see) urged as the solution to their woes: Get rid of the tenured pundits, focus on the *local* news.
The reaction of the relevant bloggers is not to praise the paper for following their prescription, but intense denunciation (“self-defeating” , “suicidal”, etc.). It turns out there’s an exception, there are some pundits who are so valuable they should be retained as print lecturers – not replaced with an RSS feed of blogs.

I think this critique, whatever else it may be, is quit comprehensible.

]]> By: Dan Gillmor http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1411 Dan Gillmor Thu, 10 May 2007 23:04:23 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1411 Seth, you're not making sense. Sorry I can't explain it better to you, but apparently you don't want to get the point. Seth, you’re not making sense. Sorry I can’t explain it better to you, but apparently you don’t want to get the point.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1420 Seth Finkelstein Wed, 09 May 2007 22:27:20 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1420 Bradley (and Dan), let me get this straight. There are a favored few pundits (A-listers, if you will), who are a "brand-name" and "biggest name", who do NOTHING but pontificate, but their opinionating is of such critical aspect to the future of the newspaper, that they cannot be replaced for much less cost by the "We The Media" pushed elsewhere. Do you guys have any idea how self-servingly hypocritical that sounds? Lurking underneath here is the dirty little secret that many, many prominent bloggers owe their attention to being part of that Big Media "priesthood". Without that special elevation, they're just another ranter in a vast ocean of bloviators. Bradley (and Dan), let me get this straight. There are a favored few pundits (A-listers, if you will), who are a “brand-name” and “biggest name”, who do NOTHING but pontificate, but their opinionating is of such critical aspect to the future of the newspaper, that they cannot be replaced for much less cost by the “We The Media” pushed elsewhere.

Do you guys have any idea how self-servingly hypocritical that sounds?

Lurking underneath here is the dirty little secret that many, many prominent bloggers owe their attention to being part of that Big Media “priesthood”. Without that special elevation, they’re just another ranter in a vast ocean of bloviators.

]]> By: Bradley J. Fikes http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1413 Bradley J. Fikes Wed, 09 May 2007 04:14:22 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1413 Seth, Lileks is the biggest name the Star-Tribune has. He draws in the people who otherwise would not give a rodent's posterior for the paper. Lileks is ideally positioned to be a bridge between old media and new. It's his highest and best use for the paper. But Par Ridder, that dissembling paean to entitled mediocrity, is too clueless to see it. Those of us who work in newspapers hate to see such examples of boneheaded stupidity, because we'd like to see newspapers adapt to the digital era, not perish. Seth,

Lileks is the biggest name the Star-Tribune has. He draws in the people who otherwise would not give a rodent’s posterior for the paper. Lileks is ideally positioned to be a bridge between old media and new. It’s his highest and best use for the paper. But Par Ridder, that dissembling paean to entitled mediocrity, is too clueless to see it.

Those of us who work in newspapers hate to see such examples of boneheaded stupidity, because we’d like to see newspapers adapt to the digital era, not perish.

]]> By: Minneapolis http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1415 Minneapolis Wed, 09 May 2007 02:31:57 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1415 I'm a little baffled by all this: not the letting go of Lileks, honestly, but the upswell of support for the guy. I do believe his writing on The Bleak is pretty great, even though I find his politics occasionally abhorrent. But have you guys read his Strib columns? Pure fluff. And, often bordering on gibberish. I definitely would NOT defend him as a "top-notch columnist." What I suspect is that a.) journalists are (rightly) decrying the pulling of any column, and b.) right-wing partisans who buy the message of his blog, but haven't read a word of his Strib tripe, are going to bat for him, with only half the information they might need to do so. I, too, lament the loss of personality Lileks departure will mean for us in Minneapolis, but I know he'll have a fine career -- as he always has -- as a blogger, on his own time and his own dime. I’m a little baffled by all this: not the letting go of Lileks, honestly, but the upswell of support for the guy. I do believe his writing on The Bleak is pretty great, even though I find his politics occasionally abhorrent. But have you guys read his Strib columns? Pure fluff. And, often bordering on gibberish. I definitely would NOT defend him as a “top-notch columnist.” What I suspect is that a.) journalists are (rightly) decrying the pulling of any column, and b.) right-wing partisans who buy the message of his blog, but haven’t read a word of his Strib tripe, are going to bat for him, with only half the information they might need to do so. I, too, lament the loss of personality Lileks departure will mean for us in Minneapolis, but I know he’ll have a fine career — as he always has — as a blogger, on his own time and his own dime.

]]> By: Dan Gillmor http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1418 Dan Gillmor Tue, 08 May 2007 22:30:13 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1418 There are more than a few political columnists whose work I consider less good than some bloggers I read every day. You could replace those columnists and no one would notice (except maybe to spot an improvement). I do think Lileks could become his own media outlet and do fine, incidentally. But a voice as idiosyncratic as his will find a buyer as long as there are media that can buy things. No one is entitled to any privileged position, unless they're born wealthy in George Bush's America. There are more than a few political columnists whose work I consider less good than some bloggers I read every day. You could replace those columnists and no one would notice (except maybe to spot an improvement).

I do think Lileks could become his own media outlet and do fine, incidentally. But a voice as idiosyncratic as his will find a buyer as long as there are media that can buy things.

No one is entitled to any privileged position, unless they’re born wealthy in George Bush’s America.

]]> By: Seth Finkelstein http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1414 Seth Finkelstein Tue, 08 May 2007 22:10:11 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1414 There's only one [anybody], but there are a lot of people in the world with an opinion. Who get told they're the vanguard of the revolution. Look at what you said - in any other context, isn't that the sort of thing which would get frothingly denounced as: "You elitist you! That old-media dinosaur thinking is why newspapers continue to lose readers in this brave new world! YOU DON'T "GET IT"! You're still stuck in the legacy mindset of "Brand-name columnists". It's now not a lecture, but a *conversation*. The thing to do is to get rid of those pompous out-of-touch priests, and repackage *bloggers*. If Lileks is so great (per Delia), he should just be supplying his RSS feed, voted up by the-netizens-formerly-known-as-readers, and making money off AdSense and consulting. " [Am I Jarvising, or what? :-)] Oh, but this is one of club, so 180-degree reverse, he's entitled to his privileged pontification position, not an unglamorous no-attention job of actual *reporting* (you know, the stuff newspapers are supposed to get from the little people, for nothing ...). There’s only one [anybody], but there are a lot of people in the world with an opinion. Who get told they’re the vanguard of the revolution.

Look at what you said – in any other context, isn’t that the sort of thing which would get frothingly denounced as: “You elitist you! That old-media dinosaur thinking is why newspapers continue to lose readers in this brave new world! YOU DON’T “GET IT”! You’re still stuck in the legacy mindset of “Brand-name columnists”. It’s now not a lecture, but a *conversation*. The thing to do is to get rid of those pompous out-of-touch priests, and repackage *bloggers*. If Lileks is so great (per Delia), he should just be supplying his RSS feed, voted up by the-netizens-formerly-known-as-readers, and making money off AdSense and consulting. ”

[Am I Jarvising, or what? :-) ]

Oh, but this is one of club, so 180-degree reverse, he’s entitled to his privileged pontification position, not an unglamorous no-attention job of actual *reporting* (you know, the stuff newspapers are supposed to get from the little people, for nothing …).

]]> By: Delia http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1417 Delia Tue, 08 May 2007 21:44:38 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1417 Dan, it seems odd that he would *need* anybody's gig is he is that good... (should be able to start something of his own and do well at it) D. Dan, it seems odd that he would *need* anybody’s gig is he is that good… (should be able to start something of his own and do well at it) D.

]]> By: Dan Gillmor http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/comment-page-1/#comment-1416 Dan Gillmor Tue, 08 May 2007 21:28:05 +0000 http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/05/08/newspaper-self-immolation/#comment-1416 Not at all. Brand-name columnists are one of the major selling points newspapers have left. Local columns are absolutely part of the local news menu, or should be. There's lots of opinioning on the net, but one Lileks. Not at all. Brand-name columnists are one of the major selling points newspapers have left. Local columns are absolutely part of the local news menu, or should be.

There’s lots of opinioning on the net, but one Lileks.

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