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	<title>Comments on: Newspaper Columnist Hauls Out &quot;Make &#039;em Pay&quot; Fix</title>
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	<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/</link>
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		<title>By: Will Hobert</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1175</link>
		<dc:creator>Will Hobert</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sat, 17 Mar 2007 17:26:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1175</guid>
		<description>Whoa, wait a minute though Dan.  You may be absolutely right about &quot;fair use&quot; and snippets, but imagine this scenario:  Google&#039;s bots scrape blogs, news, newspapers, commentary, etc. pulling just enough content from each to stay within &quot;fair use,&quot; and then dynamically (without human editors) aggregate and repackage each of the snippets into a brand new news story, that is essentially dozens of bite-sized, &quot;fair-use&quot; snippets pulled from others&#039; work product.

It&#039;s probably not feasible at the moment, but with the increasing complexity of Google&#039;s spiders and algorithms, this will happen someday soon... It&#039;s exactly what was warned about in the video EPIC 2014 where they predicted that Google&#039;s computers will &quot;...construct news stories dynamically, stripping sentences and facts from all content sources and recombining them.  The computer writes a news story for every user.”

It sounds like fear-mongering, but man it raises a really interesting question:  What happens when technology allows you to stay well within &quot;fair use&quot; boundaries, but at the same time allows you to construct (and profit from) brand new news stories aggregated from others&#039; content?</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Whoa, wait a minute though Dan.  You may be absolutely right about &#8220;fair use&#8221; and snippets, but imagine this scenario:  Google&#8217;s bots scrape blogs, news, newspapers, commentary, etc. pulling just enough content from each to stay within &#8220;fair use,&#8221; and then dynamically (without human editors) aggregate and repackage each of the snippets into a brand new news story, that is essentially dozens of bite-sized, &#8220;fair-use&#8221; snippets pulled from others&#8217; work product.</p>
<p>It&#8217;s probably not feasible at the moment, but with the increasing complexity of Google&#8217;s spiders and algorithms, this will happen someday soon&#8230; It&#8217;s exactly what was warned about in the video EPIC 2014 where they predicted that Google&#8217;s computers will &#8220;&#8230;construct news stories dynamically, stripping sentences and facts from all content sources and recombining them.  The computer writes a news story for every user.”</p>
<p>It sounds like fear-mongering, but man it raises a really interesting question:  What happens when technology allows you to stay well within &#8220;fair use&#8221; boundaries, but at the same time allows you to construct (and profit from) brand new news stories aggregated from others&#8217; content?</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1171</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Fri, 16 Mar 2007 03:10:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1171</guid>
		<description>Yes.

The only potential wrinkle would be if the paragraphs weren&#039;t the entire contents of the postings --  but rather a fair-use sized portion.

In my case, since this is published under a Creative Commons license, you could publish it all for non-commercial purposes.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yes.</p>
<p>The only potential wrinkle would be if the paragraphs weren&#8217;t the entire contents of the postings &#8212;  but rather a fair-use sized portion.</p>
<p>In my case, since this is published under a Creative Commons license, you could publish it all for non-commercial purposes.</p>
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		<title>By: Delia</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1172</link>
		<dc:creator>Delia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 23:32:41 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1172</guid>
		<description>Dan, just to make sure I understand what you are saying: say I wanted to start my own news site, &quot;Delia&#039;s random news,&quot; and that&#039;s exactly what I did... just randomly throw a bunch of quotes (with the proper credit) together to fill up the page … part of my &quot;work&quot; would be a daily &quot;column&quot; entitled &quot;what Dan, Jay &amp; Jeff are sayin&#039; &quot; and again I randomly pulled 3 paragraphs, one from each of your daily blog entries and left it at that... would that be fair use in your view?   D.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, just to make sure I understand what you are saying: say I wanted to start my own news site, &#8220;Delia&#8217;s random news,&#8221; and that&#8217;s exactly what I did&#8230; just randomly throw a bunch of quotes (with the proper credit) together to fill up the page … part of my &#8220;work&#8221; would be a daily &#8220;column&#8221; entitled &#8220;what Dan, Jay &amp; Jeff are sayin&#8217; &#8221; and again I randomly pulled 3 paragraphs, one from each of your daily blog entries and left it at that&#8230; would that be fair use in your view?   D.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1174</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 19:28:13 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1174</guid>
		<description>Delia, we&#039;re talking about a different kind of aggregation. Look at Google News and other sites that use headlines and short quotations from news sites. That&#039;s the kind of aggregation that the Chronicle columnist claims is unreasonable. It is not.

An RSS feed that includes everything is being *given away* by the site creating the feed. So there&#039;s no issue there, either. No one is forced to give it away; and in fact RSS allows for summaries instead of full feeds.

The only place where this is an issue is when someone takes the full text/audio/video or a substantial -- i.e. not fair-use size -- piece of the original content and then gives it away online. I don&#039;t endorse that.

Aggregating short quotes and selling them is absolutely part of fair use, in my own view. Sometimes aggregation is the creation of something new, just in the collecting. So feel free to grab a quote here and there from my work and use it as part of something you sell. Just point to the original and give me credit, and I&#039;ll be happy.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Delia, we&#8217;re talking about a different kind of aggregation. Look at Google News and other sites that use headlines and short quotations from news sites. That&#8217;s the kind of aggregation that the Chronicle columnist claims is unreasonable. It is not.</p>
<p>An RSS feed that includes everything is being *given away* by the site creating the feed. So there&#8217;s no issue there, either. No one is forced to give it away; and in fact RSS allows for summaries instead of full feeds.</p>
<p>The only place where this is an issue is when someone takes the full text/audio/video or a substantial &#8212; i.e. not fair-use size &#8212; piece of the original content and then gives it away online. I don&#8217;t endorse that.</p>
<p>Aggregating short quotes and selling them is absolutely part of fair use, in my own view. Sometimes aggregation is the creation of something new, just in the collecting. So feel free to grab a quote here and there from my work and use it as part of something you sell. Just point to the original and give me credit, and I&#8217;ll be happy.</p>
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		<title>By: Howard Weaver</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1167</link>
		<dc:creator>Howard Weaver</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 02:06:59 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1167</guid>
		<description>This is *such* a silly argument.

It costs newspaper companies more to print and distribute a newspaper than they make in circulation revenue. This has been true for years.

So we&#039;re *already* giving away the content. It&#039;s about finding advertisers to pay for the audience we pay to aggragate.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is *such* a silly argument.</p>
<p>It costs newspaper companies more to print and distribute a newspaper than they make in circulation revenue. This has been true for years.</p>
<p>So we&#8217;re *already* giving away the content. It&#8217;s about finding advertisers to pay for the audience we pay to aggragate.</p>
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		<title>By: Delia</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1168</link>
		<dc:creator>Delia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 23:01:37 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1168</guid>
		<description>oops...I disagree with having the *right* (NOT the permission) to &quot;quote&quot; for whatever reason... D.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>oops&#8230;I disagree with having the *right* (NOT the permission) to &#8220;quote&#8221; for whatever reason&#8230; D.</p>
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		<title>By: Delia</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1169</link>
		<dc:creator>Delia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 22:58:18 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1169</guid>
		<description>but aggregators aren&#039;t just... *quoting* things: they take the whole thing! combine it with some other stuff (aka repackage it, without adding any new content of their own) and then sell it... (whether they charge access fee or just get money from advertising or the like).

&quot;This isn’t about commentary or anything like it. I can quote from other people’s work in a new work — say, a regular news article or magazine piece that has no commentary at all — and get paid handsomely, and the money is mine, not yours in any respect. That is the essence of fair use.&quot;

I don&#039;t think that&#039;s true -- you may use a *portion* of it but not on it&#039;s own... and not just because... if this was true, I could just take your blog, Jay&#039;s blog and Jeff&#039;s blog and keep alternating &quot;quotes&quot; from them until I&#039;m done with all the content and sell the stuff...

&quot;If we have to get permission or, worse, pay to quote someone — for whatever reason — *then all kinds of valuable work will be much, much harder to do, if not outright impossible* [my emphasis]&quot;.

I agree with the part I emphasized, I think this is what fair use is all about (or if it&#039;s NOT...it *should* be!): being able to use a part of others&#039; work *provided* that you use it to do some valuable work of your own... (giving people the right to use the stuff... just because... well, just to make money off of it! defeats the rationale of fair use -- this means I disagree with having permission to &quot;quote...(...) for whatever reason&quot;).

Delia</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>but aggregators aren&#8217;t just&#8230; *quoting* things: they take the whole thing! combine it with some other stuff (aka repackage it, without adding any new content of their own) and then sell it&#8230; (whether they charge access fee or just get money from advertising or the like).</p>
<p>&#8220;This isn’t about commentary or anything like it. I can quote from other people’s work in a new work — say, a regular news article or magazine piece that has no commentary at all — and get paid handsomely, and the money is mine, not yours in any respect. That is the essence of fair use.&#8221;</p>
<p>I don&#8217;t think that&#8217;s true &#8212; you may use a *portion* of it but not on it&#8217;s own&#8230; and not just because&#8230; if this was true, I could just take your blog, Jay&#8217;s blog and Jeff&#8217;s blog and keep alternating &#8220;quotes&#8221; from them until I&#8217;m done with all the content and sell the stuff&#8230;</p>
<p>&#8220;If we have to get permission or, worse, pay to quote someone — for whatever reason — *then all kinds of valuable work will be much, much harder to do, if not outright impossible* [my emphasis]&#8220;.</p>
<p>I agree with the part I emphasized, I think this is what fair use is all about (or if it&#8217;s NOT&#8230;it *should* be!): being able to use a part of others&#8217; work *provided* that you use it to do some valuable work of your own&#8230; (giving people the right to use the stuff&#8230; just because&#8230; well, just to make money off of it! defeats the rationale of fair use &#8212; this means I disagree with having permission to &#8220;quote&#8230;(&#8230;) for whatever reason&#8221;).</p>
<p>Delia</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1170</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 21:00:15 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1170</guid>
		<description>I&#039;m not giving you permission to reprint in full what I write and charge for it. You don&#039;t have that right.

But even if I didn&#039;t want you to do it, I could not stop you from quoting a headline and short bit of what I write. That is fair use, no matter what you do with it.

This isn&#039;t about commentary or anything like it. I can quote from other people&#039;s work in a new work -- say, a regular news article or magazine piece that has no commentary at all -- and get paid handsomely, and the money is mine, not yours in any respect. That is the essence of fair use.

If we have to get permission or, worse, pay to quote someone -- for whatever reason -- then all kinds of valuable work will be much, much harder to do, if not outright impossible.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I&#8217;m not giving you permission to reprint in full what I write and charge for it. You don&#8217;t have that right.</p>
<p>But even if I didn&#8217;t want you to do it, I could not stop you from quoting a headline and short bit of what I write. That is fair use, no matter what you do with it.</p>
<p>This isn&#8217;t about commentary or anything like it. I can quote from other people&#8217;s work in a new work &#8212; say, a regular news article or magazine piece that has no commentary at all &#8212; and get paid handsomely, and the money is mine, not yours in any respect. That is the essence of fair use.</p>
<p>If we have to get permission or, worse, pay to quote someone &#8212; for whatever reason &#8212; then all kinds of valuable work will be much, much harder to do, if not outright impossible.</p>
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		<title>By: Delia</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1173</link>
		<dc:creator>Delia</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 16:03:03 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1173</guid>
		<description>but that&#039;s not really what&#039;s going on, now, or ... is it? (the aggregators&#039; business is NOT *commentary* on other peoples stuff -- it&#039;s just taking the stuff, repackaging it and selling it... it&#039;s purely *commercial*; I don&#039;t see how &quot;fair use&quot; could apply)

suppose I took your blog, Jay&#039;s blog and Jeff&#039;s blog and figured out how to sell the content (every little bit of it...) without producing any new content: you might not mind it but I don&#039;t think I should be able to do just do that without compensating you (unless you gave me permission, of course)...   D.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>but that&#8217;s not really what&#8217;s going on, now, or &#8230; is it? (the aggregators&#8217; business is NOT *commentary* on other peoples stuff &#8212; it&#8217;s just taking the stuff, repackaging it and selling it&#8230; it&#8217;s purely *commercial*; I don&#8217;t see how &#8220;fair use&#8221; could apply)</p>
<p>suppose I took your blog, Jay&#8217;s blog and Jeff&#8217;s blog and figured out how to sell the content (every little bit of it&#8230;) without producing any new content: you might not mind it but I don&#8217;t think I should be able to do just do that without compensating you (unless you gave me permission, of course)&#8230;   D.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/comment-page-1/#comment-1165</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 14 Mar 2007 13:44:07 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/14/newspaper-columnist-hauls-out-make-em-pay-fix/#comment-1165</guid>
		<description>They have no *right* to be compensated, just as I have no right to be compensated if you quote me in an article you write for pay.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>They have no *right* to be compensated, just as I have no right to be compensated if you quote me in an article you write for pay.</p>
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