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	<title>Comments on: Pay-for-Play Bloggers Pollute Media Ethics</title>
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	<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/</link>
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		<title>By: Dan Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1160</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Mar 2007 15:33:47 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1160</guid>
		<description>Seth, I did get it. Will be thinking through what you&#039;re saying --</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, I did get it. Will be thinking through what you&#8217;re saying &#8211;</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1140</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 15 Mar 2007 05:52:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1140</guid>
		<description>Dan, I replied, just checking, if it got through (spam-breakage is a big hassle these days)

DP: To be fair, mark each post which is paid (&quot;sponsored&quot;), is not a complicated proposition. I just don&#039;t go into high dudgeon that some small-fry cut corners on it (it doesn&#039;t matter much anyway in practice, since the post is for the search engine linkage, not the human readers). Some A-listers do have general disclosure page, but the problem is that it&#039;s hard to get context from that.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, I replied, just checking, if it got through (spam-breakage is a big hassle these days)</p>
<p>DP: To be fair, mark each post which is paid (&#8220;sponsored&#8221;), is not a complicated proposition. I just don&#8217;t go into high dudgeon that some small-fry cut corners on it (it doesn&#8217;t matter much anyway in practice, since the post is for the search engine linkage, not the human readers). Some A-listers do have general disclosure page, but the problem is that it&#8217;s hard to get context from that.</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1137</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 14:34:56 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1137</guid>
		<description>Seth, I didn&#039;t get your email. I&#039;ve sent you an email from another address. Please reply there.

DP Dan: So you won&#039;t have a disclosure policy that means anything until everyone else does? Nice dodge of the question.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Seth, I didn&#8217;t get your email. I&#8217;ve sent you an email from another address. Please reply there.</p>
<p>DP Dan: So you won&#8217;t have a disclosure policy that means anything until everyone else does? Nice dodge of the question.</p>
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		<title>By: DP Dan</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1138</link>
		<dc:creator>DP Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 13:48:52 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1138</guid>
		<description>@DanG: I&#039;d love to see your model Disclosure Policy &quot;with teeth&quot; that applies to all bloggers large and small, and all forms of conflict direct and indirect (including comps, passes, product, cash, travel, meals, exclusives etc.).  I&#039;ll even try to get your wording added to the Disclosure Policy Generator over at DisclosurePolicy.org.

Even though PPP isn&#039;t the blogger or the sponsor, it never hurts to encourage best practices.  I thought you&#039;d enjoy the CEO&#039;s latest/timely post:
http://blog.payperpost.com/2007/03/disclose-disclose-disclose.html .  This is a message I don&#039;t hear from the multi-billion dollar affiliate industry (Amazon, Google, others) and I even see elites such as Calacanis trying to deny their conflicts.  Help make Disclosure Policies an audience expectation and we have a shot at everyone playing by the same rules -- assuming you want that ;-)</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@DanG: I&#8217;d love to see your model Disclosure Policy &#8220;with teeth&#8221; that applies to all bloggers large and small, and all forms of conflict direct and indirect (including comps, passes, product, cash, travel, meals, exclusives etc.).  I&#8217;ll even try to get your wording added to the Disclosure Policy Generator over at DisclosurePolicy.org.</p>
<p>Even though PPP isn&#8217;t the blogger or the sponsor, it never hurts to encourage best practices.  I thought you&#8217;d enjoy the CEO&#8217;s latest/timely post:<br />
<a href="http://blog.payperpost.com/2007/03/disclose-disclose-disclose.html" rel="nofollow">http://blog.payperpost.com/2007/03/disclose-disclose-disclose.html</a> .  This is a message I don&#8217;t hear from the multi-billion dollar affiliate industry (Amazon, Google, others) and I even see elites such as Calacanis trying to deny their conflicts.  Help make Disclosure Policies an audience expectation and we have a shot at everyone playing by the same rules &#8212; assuming you want that <img src='http://citmedia.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_wink.gif' alt=';-)' class='wp-smiley' /> </p>
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		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1143</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 13 Mar 2007 02:38:14 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1143</guid>
		<description>Dan, did you get my email on this topic? I had very specific evidence there.

There&#039;s a different issue about understanding what PayPerPost actually does - read my column! This is about search engines, which *don&#039;t* *care* about either BigHead fulminations, or mass support. Also see my blog post:

PageRank/Link-Buying Doesn&#039;t Care About Blogger Ethics.
http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/archives/001087.html

Don&#039;t think I like these people. I looked at some &quot;Posties&quot;, and thought &quot;human splog&quot; (spam blog). But it&#039;s &quot;markets are conversations&quot; with a *vengeance*. It&#039;s exactly the sort of attention-selling commercialized by A-listers, except PPP is the intermediary, not cartel members.

Pushing for genuine disclosure? HA HA HA! There&#039;s so many things I&#039;d like to know about the A-list deals, that it&#039;s downright absurd to be waving that as an ethical banner. &quot;Disclosure&quot; is what the A-lister says it is,  obfuscation  is what the A-lister says it is. And I can&#039;t put details here (I sent them to you) because personal attack is what the A-lister says it is too :-(.

Related quote (sorry, can&#039;t link, the spam-filter ate an early attempt, it&#039;s from Valleywag):
&quot;Unfortunately, despite blog-media&#039;s near-sexual fixation on transparency, disclosure is not a means toward absolution for ridiculous acts. Disclosure is actually a test of your audience&#039;s tolerance for chicanery. Most embarrassing is the naive assumption that simply disclosing the payoff somehow made it kosher&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Dan, did you get my email on this topic? I had very specific evidence there.</p>
<p>There&#8217;s a different issue about understanding what PayPerPost actually does &#8211; read my column! This is about search engines, which *don&#8217;t* *care* about either BigHead fulminations, or mass support. Also see my blog post:</p>
<p>PageRank/Link-Buying Doesn&#8217;t Care About Blogger Ethics.<br />
<a href="http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/archives/001087.html" rel="nofollow">http://sethf.com/infothought/blog/archives/001087.html</a></p>
<p>Don&#8217;t think I like these people. I looked at some &#8220;Posties&#8221;, and thought &#8220;human splog&#8221; (spam blog). But it&#8217;s &#8220;markets are conversations&#8221; with a *vengeance*. It&#8217;s exactly the sort of attention-selling commercialized by A-listers, except PPP is the intermediary, not cartel members.</p>
<p>Pushing for genuine disclosure? HA HA HA! There&#8217;s so many things I&#8217;d like to know about the A-list deals, that it&#8217;s downright absurd to be waving that as an ethical banner. &#8220;Disclosure&#8221; is what the A-lister says it is,  obfuscation  is what the A-lister says it is. And I can&#8217;t put details here (I sent them to you) because personal attack is what the A-lister says it is too <img src='http://citmedia.org/blog/wp-includes/images/smilies/icon_sad.gif' alt=':-(' class='wp-smiley' /> .</p>
<p>Related quote (sorry, can&#8217;t link, the spam-filter ate an early attempt, it&#8217;s from Valleywag):<br />
&#8220;Unfortunately, despite blog-media&#8217;s near-sexual fixation on transparency, disclosure is not a means toward absolution for ridiculous acts. Disclosure is actually a test of your audience&#8217;s tolerance for chicanery. Most embarrassing is the naive assumption that simply disclosing the payoff somehow made it kosher&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1145</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 21:29:54 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1145</guid>
		<description>DP Dan and Seth continue to say, without any evidence, that pushing for genuine disclosure is cartel behavior. Perhaps they believe if they say it enough times it&#039;ll be true. It won&#039;t.

Where is the evidence that the masses support quasi-disclosed pay-for-play? Or are you talking about the bloggers who&#039;ve signed up? Hardly a mass phenomenon.

The &quot;elites&quot; you disdain don&#039;t fear your model from any competitive point of view (or if they do they&#039;re idiots). If you&#039;re including me in your elites category, which is absurd at this point, I&#039;ll tell you what I fear: that even more people will get the idea that ethically challenged behavior is appropriate, that making trust even murkier is good for us. It&#039;s not.

A sitewide disclosure policy as vague as the one you let your bloggers use is a tiny bit better than no disclosure at all, but no more than that. It says, basically, &quot;Much of what you read here is written for pay, directly or indirectly from companies I&#039;m talking about, but I&#039;m not going to say which ones.&quot; Transparency? No, more like obfuscation that invites the reader (assuming the reader spots the disclosure statement, which is not a given) to disbelieve everything. How that will help your bloggers get more traffic is a mystery.

I and may others have called for greater transparency in all kinds of media, traditional and new. I&#039;d love to see higher standards prevail, and would be happy to see lots of ways for audiences to understand the conflicts where they exist. When PPP starts requiring a disclosure policy that has actual teeth, I&#039;ll gladly work with you. Forgive me if I don&#039;t hold my breath in anticipation.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>DP Dan and Seth continue to say, without any evidence, that pushing for genuine disclosure is cartel behavior. Perhaps they believe if they say it enough times it&#8217;ll be true. It won&#8217;t.</p>
<p>Where is the evidence that the masses support quasi-disclosed pay-for-play? Or are you talking about the bloggers who&#8217;ve signed up? Hardly a mass phenomenon.</p>
<p>The &#8220;elites&#8221; you disdain don&#8217;t fear your model from any competitive point of view (or if they do they&#8217;re idiots). If you&#8217;re including me in your elites category, which is absurd at this point, I&#8217;ll tell you what I fear: that even more people will get the idea that ethically challenged behavior is appropriate, that making trust even murkier is good for us. It&#8217;s not.</p>
<p>A sitewide disclosure policy as vague as the one you let your bloggers use is a tiny bit better than no disclosure at all, but no more than that. It says, basically, &#8220;Much of what you read here is written for pay, directly or indirectly from companies I&#8217;m talking about, but I&#8217;m not going to say which ones.&#8221; Transparency? No, more like obfuscation that invites the reader (assuming the reader spots the disclosure statement, which is not a given) to disbelieve everything. How that will help your bloggers get more traffic is a mystery.</p>
<p>I and may others have called for greater transparency in all kinds of media, traditional and new. I&#8217;d love to see higher standards prevail, and would be happy to see lots of ways for audiences to understand the conflicts where they exist. When PPP starts requiring a disclosure policy that has actual teeth, I&#8217;ll gladly work with you. Forgive me if I don&#8217;t hold my breath in anticipation.</p>
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		<title>By: DP Dan</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1149</link>
		<dc:creator>DP Dan</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 12 Mar 2007 16:53:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1149</guid>
		<description>Excellent points Seth, as always.  The Clinton reference is an interesting analogy.

I invested in PPP largely on the disintermediation opportunity and the team&#039;s commitment to helping the masses access what the elites have gotten via passes, product, cash, meals, travel and exclusives for some time -- compensation for their efforts/influence.  When such a direct business model exists it brings more diverse people/perspectives into the blogosphere conversation and encourages discipline/frequency that may have been absent as a hobby -- with world-changing potential.  The response from the masses (support) and the elites (fear) is about what I expected.

It has surprised me a bit that the elites trash positive innovations such as prominent, sitewide Disclosure Policies -- a framework that drives transparency beyond any other medium and has the flexibility to handle various/future scenarios (e.g. conference speakers who get selected/comped largely on the expectation of some blog coverage/influence peddling, online indie filmmakers who fund their movies via product placements).  Given that a robust Disclosure Policy framework requires elites to disclose all of their direct and indirect conflicts, I probably shouldn&#039;t be surprised.

If groups like Citizen Media want to help drive transparency going forward, let&#039;s pull together to improve and expand Disclosure Policies for all conflicts.  Some folks are already creating DP plug-ins.  Wouldn&#039;t it be terrific if every TV station, newspaper and radio station had a standard button audiences could push on-the-fly to understand conflicts, biases and practices?  They can&#039;t, but we can do that here -- if transparency is really the goal and not just protecting cartels...</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Excellent points Seth, as always.  The Clinton reference is an interesting analogy.</p>
<p>I invested in PPP largely on the disintermediation opportunity and the team&#8217;s commitment to helping the masses access what the elites have gotten via passes, product, cash, meals, travel and exclusives for some time &#8212; compensation for their efforts/influence.  When such a direct business model exists it brings more diverse people/perspectives into the blogosphere conversation and encourages discipline/frequency that may have been absent as a hobby &#8212; with world-changing potential.  The response from the masses (support) and the elites (fear) is about what I expected.</p>
<p>It has surprised me a bit that the elites trash positive innovations such as prominent, sitewide Disclosure Policies &#8212; a framework that drives transparency beyond any other medium and has the flexibility to handle various/future scenarios (e.g. conference speakers who get selected/comped largely on the expectation of some blog coverage/influence peddling, online indie filmmakers who fund their movies via product placements).  Given that a robust Disclosure Policy framework requires elites to disclose all of their direct and indirect conflicts, I probably shouldn&#8217;t be surprised.</p>
<p>If groups like Citizen Media want to help drive transparency going forward, let&#8217;s pull together to improve and expand Disclosure Policies for all conflicts.  Some folks are already creating DP plug-ins.  Wouldn&#8217;t it be terrific if every TV station, newspaper and radio station had a standard button audiences could push on-the-fly to understand conflicts, biases and practices?  They can&#8217;t, but we can do that here &#8212; if transparency is really the goal and not just protecting cartels&#8230;</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1139</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 20:51:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1139</guid>
		<description>Sorry about having to post twice. I&#039;m now being hammered by spam -- hundreds per day -- and can&#039;t check every in-queue comment anymore.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sorry about having to post twice. I&#8217;m now being hammered by spam &#8212; hundreds per day &#8212; and can&#8217;t check every in-queue comment anymore.</p>
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		<title>By: Seth Finkelstein</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1144</link>
		<dc:creator>Seth Finkelstein</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 08:26:04 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1144</guid>
		<description>Rick: If you read carefully, there is blanket disclosure by the blogger, but the claim is that it&#039;s not sufficient and visible in each post. I am not saying this is justified. I&#039;m saying I have a hard time getting worked up about the magnitude of the sins in terms of &quot;Pollute Media Ethics&quot;, when it looks to be used as a protectionist cudgel. It&#039;s quite possible to commit a minor ethical breach, which while it is a breach, is used by opponents who have agendas far different from defense of ethics. Bill Clinton&#039;s impeachers didn&#039;t really care about anything they charged him with, it was all a means to an end.

[spam-note: Second post, without URL, since the spam-filter seemed to have eaten the first]</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Rick: If you read carefully, there is blanket disclosure by the blogger, but the claim is that it&#8217;s not sufficient and visible in each post. I am not saying this is justified. I&#8217;m saying I have a hard time getting worked up about the magnitude of the sins in terms of &#8220;Pollute Media Ethics&#8221;, when it looks to be used as a protectionist cudgel. It&#8217;s quite possible to commit a minor ethical breach, which while it is a breach, is used by opponents who have agendas far different from defense of ethics. Bill Clinton&#8217;s impeachers didn&#8217;t really care about anything they charged him with, it was all a means to an end.</p>
<p>[spam-note: Second post, without URL, since the spam-filter seemed to have eaten the first]</p>
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		<title>By: Dan Gillmor</title>
		<link>http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/comment-page-1/#comment-1146</link>
		<dc:creator>Dan Gillmor</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 11 Mar 2007 05:38:19 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://citmedia.org/blog/2007/03/09/pay-for-play-bloggers-pollute-media-ethics/#comment-1146</guid>
		<description>I await your email.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I await your email.</p>
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